In this conversation, Peach Zwyssig, CEO of Accelra, discusses the intricacies of building tech startups, the Swiss startup ecosystem, and the importance of understanding product-market fit. He shares insights on funding trends, the company building process, and the significance of aligning incentives between founders and investors. The discussion also touches on the challenges faced by startups, the role of team dynamics, and the importance of purpose-driven entrepreneurship.


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Takeaways

Accelra focuses on building tech startups through execution, not just funding.
Switzerland is recognized as a leading innovative country, but faces challenges in market launch.
Only a small percentage of startups survive long-term, emphasizing the need for support.
Funding for startups has significantly decreased, impacting various sectors differently.
Understanding customer problems is crucial before developing solutions.
Engagement models vary, including cash, sweat equity, and joint ventures.
Product-market fit is a multi-step process that requires validation and iteration.
Revenue validation is essential for attracting further investment.
Startups often drop off due to cash flow issues and lack of market need.
Team dynamics and founder resilience are critical for startup success.

Chapters

00:00 Introduction to Tech Venture Building and Axelra’s Award
02:11 The Startup Ecosystem in Switzerland
10:43 The Process of Company Building
33:02 The Importance of Pivoting and Adaptation
33:57 Understanding Startup Dynamics: Roles and Characteristics
34:52 The Art of Venture Building: Handover and Iterative Launches
01:06:53 Purpose-Driven Entrepreneurship and the Impact of Relationships

Transcript

Daniel Faloppa (00:00)
Good morning, Peach.

Peach Zwyssig (Axelra – Tech Venture Builder) (00:02)
Hello from Switzerland!

Daniel Faloppa (00:03)
It’s

good to have you. Thank you for coming on the podcast. I know while we had a lot of previous discussions and we’ve been working together for some years. But I know a little bit what Accelerator does, but maybe you want to introduce it to our listeners and also talk about this award that you got recently, which I think is pretty interesting.

Peach Zwyssig (Axelra – Tech Venture Builder) (00:31)
Thanks a lot for having me. My name is Piet, I’m the CEO and one of the co -founders of the tech venture builder, Accelra. So what we do, we kind of build tech startups in the end. It’s all about execution. It’s not a consulting or advisory situation. It’s also not a pure funding situation, but it’s really the approach of launching based on.

problems, validating them, launching MVPs that generate revenue, build the team, incorporate it, also help to get funding and do sales. So we do work in the three different areas, product management and growth in order to achieve that. And what we are claiming is that we accelerate the journey of creating such a tech venture, so the tech venture building journey. We accelerate that together with founders and also corporate who want to do that.

with aligned interests, so called skin in the game. And our specialty is launching revenue generating MVPs in 100 days. So the speed we do it becomes a pretty important thing.

Daniel Faloppa (01:42)
You’ve been doing that for a while, right?

Peach Zwyssig (Axelra – Tech Venture Builder) (01:44)
Yes, we started back in 2019. So it’s already five years and you mentioned it this year in March, just two months ago, we have been awarded by the Financial Time for, they made a study of the startup hubs and did kind of ask a lot of alumnus, how did that work? And Financial Time came to the conclusion that out of those couple of hundreds, we were doing not so bad.

we became at least in Switzerland number one and in Europe number 32. Yeah.

Daniel Faloppa (02:19)
Yeah,

it’s not a small feat, right? I mean, in Switzerland, Switzerland is quite advanced in terms of startups, at least from what I heard, like it’s very active.

Peach Zwyssig (Axelra – Tech Venture Builder) (02:27)
It is,

it is. Switzerland is claiming or can claim itself as the most innovative country in the world. So there is an innovation index claiming that a lot of the innovation comes from Switzerland. And actually, I believe in, we maybe need to differentiate it. That’s not written in those claims, but different invention and innovation. So I believe in terms of invention research.

all that stuff, we’re really superior. When it comes to go to market and launching things with an entrepreneurial mindset, I still see a lot of room for improvement. But we are a country of around eight to nine million people living here. And every year around 55 ,000 startups are being born. So…

Daniel Faloppa (03:09)
Yeah.

Peach Zwyssig (Axelra – Tech Venture Builder) (03:23)
So it’s a lot compared to the amount of people and the size of the country. We have many, many people starting a venture. Of course, not all in the tech venture part, but many people become entrepreneurs. There are also government support and whole ecosystem supporting people want to start a venture, but also like in any other markets, only 10 % survive on the long term. Let’s say about.

five years and it can help to get advised and get experienced people on that journey to be supported on. Yeah.

Daniel Faloppa (04:01)
yeah, for sure, for sure. Especially like, I mean, in Europe you need to go international pretty much straight away because just every local market is too small. And I mean, Switzerland, yeah, maybe for a GDP per capita is very high, but the number of people is very small and people with the same problem, right? So I think that helps for sure. The acceleration.

Peach Zwyssig (Axelra – Tech Venture Builder) (04:23)
Yeah. And it’s, what’s

also interesting is, I mean, from a regulation part of you, Switzerland is the heart, but not part of the EU, which makes it a little bit difficult also in terms of regulation, fintechs, PST2, whatever. So you, you have a kind of an island situation a little bit, which, makes sense to question yourself when you start to become a founder, if Switzerland is the right place.

There is a lot of money here, of course, and it also got deployed a lot in the past. Currently situation is not that good. So we had a critical downturn of that situation, but still it’s an interesting place to get started. And also when it comes to AI or financial services or stuff there, a lot of good ideas are born here.

Daniel Faloppa (04:52)
Yeah.

Yeah, exactly. So what do you think is the sort of sectors that could have an advantage there versus like maybe some that have a disadvantage in Switzerland?

Peach Zwyssig (Axelra – Tech Venture Builder) (05:31)
I guess the…

When it goes to deep tech, we have one of a very good, I mean, of course there are several good universities. If it goes about economic part, the University of St. Gallen and the Husky, but especially on the technical side, the ETH ranks amongst the best ones in the world. And a lot of talent actually is coming there. They are not entrepreneurs per se, but they’re brilliant.

technicians, right? They do understand engineers and for everything that’s related to deep tech, AI, a lot of things is being born here. So we also went recently on an event from the ETH. They built an AI center with, I don’t know, a thousand more people. And I don’t know the word in English, the doctoran, the ones who do a PhD, right?

Daniel Faloppa (06:30)
Yeah,

PhDs, yeah.

Peach Zwyssig (Axelra – Tech Venture Builder) (06:32)
So they’re

all dedicating their times and also from Pixar to Disney, from Netflix to Meta to Google to whatever it is, they all are aligned around that Zurich city and do work together with the university to really push that topic. We also have in terms of robotics, one or two pretty interesting ones. And of course, the normally known famous exit ones, as you…

Get your guide is also one of the starters that started at the ETH as far as I know and there are many smallers but in general we do not have so many problems in that country to solve.

Daniel Faloppa (07:18)
Yeah, yeah. But it feels like now that interest rates are higher and there is just less quote unquote free money, these type of hard problems are back at the forefront of what startups are raising for at least, or what successful startups are basing their competitive advantages on compared to more, let’s say, simple problems or software problems, SaaS problems that are just a use case.

for a startup rather than a hard technology to develop.

Peach Zwyssig (Axelra – Tech Venture Builder) (07:51)
Yeah, that’s absolutely true. I mean, the, the, the, the, the funding, the VC money that, that flew into that, business of startups or venture capital that decreased by Q4, 2023, almost around half. And especially in Syriac, it’s 59 % decrease or even more. And,

It’s a hard time currently and the outlook is not that bright already. So maybe it’s turning a little bit better, but it’s a really hard situation for the startups. And there are still rounds that are being performed. So you do have money that flows in, but also VCs, they have their existing funds. They probably go more for bridge funding in terms of, or to compare to really…

new early stage ventures. Some of them still launch new funds and then there is a little bit money here, but it’s difficult. What we see really strongly is the topic of longevity, pharma, mettech things. So compared to fintech, fintech decreased

by rounds decreased by about 75%. But the medtech stays still pretty pushing. And also in Switzerland, there is a lot of medtech actually happening. So it’s not everything bright, but we have some dark spots. Yeah.

Daniel Faloppa (09:17)
Yeah.

Thank you.

Yeah. Yeah. And I think like Fintech was the one that was the most hit because it was the one that was the most pumped almost during during COVID. And then it was really, really hit hard. But, you know, personally. Good. Yeah. Yeah. No. Yeah. That’s for the price of Bitcoin and the price. Yeah. Yeah.

Peach Zwyssig (Axelra – Tech Venture Builder) (09:39)
But hey, crypto is not so bad currently, right?

Exactly. So we

did see that we also do build crypto startups, Web3 startups, and we had this long winter period now. So we call it crypto winter. So when everything decreased and, but now the markets are getting to flourish again. So it’s kind of a bull market run and with the ETH approval and also the…

Bitcoin, ETF approval. So the general confidence into that mass adoption topic of cryptocurrency and also its ecosystem and startups increased, which makes the world friendlier, but special evaluations in crypto in general is a very difficult thing. I mean, if you have a token, you don’t have a token and what’s the value, how can you measure?

Daniel Faloppa (10:40)
Yeah.

Yeah.

Peach Zwyssig (Axelra – Tech Venture Builder) (10:46)
And yeah, you have more volatility there.

Daniel Faloppa (10:50)
Yeah, yeah, and we will definitely talk about that because that’s super interesting. I wanted to start on the company building process. How does it look for you? Maybe from the beginning, at what point do you start? Do you already get a team of founders with an idea? Do you create the team? How does it start for you guys?

Peach Zwyssig (Axelra – Tech Venture Builder) (11:12)
Sure, sure. Excellent question. Actually, there are different models in that startup world. People are talking about ideation or the incubator, accelerator, venture builder. Let me first explain a little bit what’s the topic. So whenever…

whenever you have an idea or found a problem and you want to incubate it, you would go to an incubator typically that does the ideation and some kind of validation for you, but not really the launch of an idea. And that goes a little bit hand in hand with the accelerator. And the accelerators helps you to bring an idea to life, so launch and scale. But then until you go to the point of where you…

do earn more money than you burn, which is an important step, but it’s really hard to reach, then some other organizations might help you with getting funding, doing scaling and so on and so forth. And the venture builder or company builder or startup studio, it’s actually almost the same, but to be considered, it’s the same for now. So they starting super early. So when there is nothing, not even a problem.

And hands over then to the VC when the company became profitable. And what you do, essentially, you bring or you help the teams to…

let’s say master four different fits. So the first fit you try to solve is the customer problem fit. That is find a problem that’s worth solving for a target group. So to fix the customer need and get that really right and the desirability. And that’s, I cannot stress that out more, but it’s so important to really do the homework here to really find the problem. And it’s hard to find a real problem. And.

If you do not have a real problem, but the solution, what most of the team do, they think, that’s the solution for the problem, but they should spend around 90 to 95 % really understanding, decrypting that problem. Then you can go and work on the problem solution fit where you have beside the desirability, the feasibility.

in order to get the validation from potential customers that your solution solves their problem, at least partially. And before you are not able to perform that, you should not go and build something in terms of coding stuff like that in general, because it becomes super expensive. And you also would need a lot of marketing, customer acquisition costs, customer lifetime value considerations.

to tell people that they do really have a problem if they don’t have a problem. So it becomes super expensive. And then the next point is then the product solution market fit, where you build an MVP and sell that to the market as a product and service. And then you work about the business model fit and you try to scale it. But it’s super important to really start at the beginning with the problem. And we have…

On one hand side, corporates coming to us, they see some potential or have some pain points. And then we choose an entrepreneurial setup to get started with them, but really focusing on the problem. We have customers or ventures who already started with something, but they’re still validating, finding out, and then we help to build them. And then we have also organizations who have…

idea and say look we also want to build xyz in that space whatever b2b sauce we want to copy that we want to we want to do that in a better way we see there a lot of potential can you help us going going through that then that’s a little bit the the process we have.

Daniel Faloppa (15:28)
Yeah, nice. And then I guess you receive equity if it’s a venture from startups, but maybe corporates and stuff. That’s more like a service that you do.

Peach Zwyssig (Axelra – Tech Venture Builder) (15:42)
They are, or we have evolved the engagement model over time. And at the beginning, we, we started with cash and sweat. So we had startups who already had a small team. They already started to do something, but they were in the validation phase. So ideation, validation, launch and scale, but they were in the validation phase and then they needed or were looking for.

for a team to support them on bringing that idea and venture to life in the area of product management and growth. And there we worked for cash and sweat. So we said, OK, look, we do two invoices. One is to have something to the costs to cover for us. And the other one is sweat equity. So we work and get some shares of the company. And.

We went with that quota for the sweat part almost to 50%. So we were also investing and having a land interest. So this is the cash and sweat model. And then has the advantage also for the entrepreneurs that they don’t have a that high burn rate at that moment and give away a little bit shares and it’s conditionally agreed.

And then the other one would be time and material, which a lot of time got chosen by the beginning from corporates. It’s just normal business, which I did 20 years before as well. And then also evolved is JV, a joint venture that we really made on the same level. So almost 50 -50 and in cooperation together and then really worked. But then on the other hand,

I mean, when we were 25 people and some founder came to us and he was alone, we had from the moment zero on an execution capability of 26 people for a dedicated time and then we could exit it. But always that handover moment is super important where we go in, we help, we support, we build, we launch, and then we also build the team and hand it over to them. So the three engagement models to summarize is time and material, cash and sweat.

joint venture and depending on where you stand we do work and do engage.

Daniel Faloppa (18:13)
Nice. It must be the first case of a successful joint venture that I heard. We had so many opportunities. It’s difficult, right? Yeah.

Peach Zwyssig (Axelra – Tech Venture Builder) (18:20)
Hey, it’s difficult. It’s difficult. Yeah, it’s

super difficult. We are also currently, we are looking more or our preferred engagement model is cash and sweat because also you do not take a majority stake of the company, which makes sense. And also for the next round, I mean, we’re…

we’re being motivated and we’ve aligned interest not to sell a lot of our service business, but in the end we want to get a stake and then sell that stake and the probability of selling it and having it as a successful company is higher if you do not own more than 20%.

Daniel Faloppa (19:02)
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, and incentives are huge, right? I mean, if you align your incentives, it’s incredible. But it’s very interesting what you guys do in terms of breaking down basically product market fit into these four steps, because I always think the definition of product market fit is almost impossible. And if you read every definition that you see is like, yeah,

you really feel this pull from the market, right? But it’s almost like something that happens and not something that you can control. But when you’re talking about customer problem fit and problem solution fit, and then I think it was solution and distribution, like in a sense, right? So.

Peach Zwyssig (Axelra – Tech Venture Builder) (19:50)
Yeah, it is.

The first is customer problem. So really understanding if the problem you have for that customer, if that’s really the problem, then you build kind of solution prototype POC to the problem and see, okay, now this is the approach we would solve it. Would that be cool? Ideally, they start to pay you something to get validated. And then is, can I bring that solution to the market? So product…

product solution market fit. So if it’s also viable and then in the end it’s the scale topic, scalability, business model fit and the problem market fit or the product solution market fit comes later. So first is really that problem and customer fit. That’s super important.

Daniel Faloppa (20:37)
Yeah. Do you have

like a moment, like do you have a meeting where you declare, okay, we are moving from one fit to the next? Is that how it works?

Peach Zwyssig (Axelra – Tech Venture Builder) (20:47)
No.

I mean, there is a conscious decision with a milestone. That’s true. So kind of a meeting, yes. But the criteria are not always the same. So like in ideation, where you want to find out what’s the problem, it’s really understanding, digging into that, speak with…

real end customers and also understand how large is that market and how difficult is that pain. And we always talk about the pain. It’s really so, can I fix the pain with something else? Can I partially fix it with something else or do we have indirect competitors to have it? What happens if we don’t do it? Does that potential customer need to have it? Why would he recommend it? Really, really like that.

And then in the validation phase, what we try to do is coming up with that solution and see if we can get 2K revenue. Something simple as, okay, I would buy this or where can I sign it for five bucks, but always money need to be there. And with B2B companies, it’s a little bit different. So there we try to…

Daniel Faloppa (22:05)
Yeah, yeah, yeah, 100%.

Peach Zwyssig (Axelra – Tech Venture Builder) (22:13)
get a written confirmation that we get a one hour meeting with the board. Also something that hurts a little bit, right? But we really try to get in. And then there is a decision from validation to launch because the money you need to invest for ideation to do a proper analysis here in Switzerland is, I mean, you could do that with much more money, but it’s around 50K.

to find a problem worth solving for a target group. And for the second phase then for the pre -MVP as well, you go to the problem solution fit, it’s around 100K. So you would not bootstrap that only, you would probably go for family, friends, grants, initial stuff like that. But also your evaluation then starts to launch. But then for building an MVP with, and I’m now talking about…

creating tech ventures with a tech IP team, four to six people, you would need something around half a million to a million. And you start to need to talk to angels, early stage VCs, and there needs to be a conscious decision to start the next round. Because basically if you don’t have any fuel in your tank equals cash, you cannot build it. You run out of cash. And that’s actually the conscious decision.

Daniel Faloppa (23:37)
Yeah, yeah.

Peach Zwyssig (Axelra – Tech Venture Builder) (23:41)
people need to be able to formulate what they want to do in a pitch to convince potential investors to give them money for something with a high risk but a really nice quant quantifies potential.

Daniel Faloppa (23:58)
Yeah, yeah. Yeah, I wanted to touch upon like the what you said, like have a little bit of revenue, right? It’s you see, well, here in the Netherlands, there is or at least there was, I’m not sure if it’s still there. But the first 2K that you earn on anything is like personal income. So you don’t have to really have a company or have sending voices like all that stuff. And I personally think it’s huge.

for companies, like, because you can really start, you can start something and you can get those first 2K in without any cost almost. You don’t need to have a notary, you don’t need to have a company. And it really proves a lot. And then it allows, it allowed us to really try to do what we do at Equitum, right? And to see that somebody really wanted to pay. Because a lot of people say that, you know, they might pay if you build this and stuff. And I always tell startups like, get the money.

Peach Zwyssig (Axelra – Tech Venture Builder) (24:49)
Yeah.

Daniel Faloppa (24:54)
Like when you get it, you can return it, right? But at least you have the validation that they would have given it to you, right? And that’s huge.

Peach Zwyssig (Axelra – Tech Venture Builder) (25:02)
That’s a little bit of an advantage

we have. I mean, we could also invoice it as Accelra at this point of time, because then we do have the, let’s say, the money there. But I 100 % agree. It should be real money that’s flowing. You can return it, that’s fine. Regarding the point of incorporation,

Daniel Faloppa (25:08)
Yeah.

Peach Zwyssig (Axelra – Tech Venture Builder) (25:29)
You would need to be incorporated to get external money because they need to have something against. But when this actually happens, that is super, let’s say, not random, but we have people who say, I just incorporate, I want to do that either with you or something else. Nobody can stop me. And it’s fine. And we have people who are…

Finding evaluating and then they think about it and slowly they they decided the point. Okay now it becomes more Visible now, I gonna start that’s also fine. I I just yeah, come on

Daniel Faloppa (26:08)
Yeah. But I know that

that part stops a lot of especially young entrepreneurs, students and stuff. When you start looking, I don’t know now in Switzerland, but when you start looking at 3, 4K between notary and lawyers and things just to get the company up and running and advisors and accountants, it stops a lot of ideas. So that’s, I think, another…

advantage of relying on the infrastructure already built by another company, that you can start many more ideas.

Peach Zwyssig (Axelra – Tech Venture Builder) (26:46)
Yeah, actually the incorporation part itself, the cost for the incorporation is not that high in Switzerland. You anyway need to have a little bit of money. And we always want the people to be engaged, but you can build it. There’s a website startups .ch and then you would build it 500 bucks and then it’s done. It’s really fast.

Daniel Faloppa (27:11)
Nice. That’s not the case in Italy,

Spain, Netherlands. Yeah.

Peach Zwyssig (Axelra – Tech Venture Builder) (27:16)
No, but the thing is, I mean,

you have cost attached to that afterwards. But also if you want to create a company, you create a juristic body. You also need then, if it doesn’t work, you need to liquidate it and shut down and then, but it’s becoming serious. But we want the teams to see that they put their money in, not only their time.

Daniel Faloppa (27:43)
Yeah.

Peach Zwyssig (Axelra – Tech Venture Builder) (27:43)
can

be a lot of time but also a little bit of money because it needs to hurt, it needs to be serious.

Daniel Faloppa (27:48)
Yeah,

nice. All right. And then I guess what’s the stage that you see like most things dropping off? Is this when they are raising like 100k to make the MVP or?

Peach Zwyssig (Axelra – Tech Venture Builder) (28:07)
That’s difficult to say. So we accelerated now 43 startups. So we can manage around five to six a year and also some corporate projects on the side. But they drop out for various reasons. It gets visible when you see they ran out of cash.

That’s then the ultimate barometer of seeing, okay, it’s not going to run way zero burn rate so high so that they need to close. But the problem actually starts earlier, way earlier, and they need to need to think for us at the beginning, choosing organizations, startup teams who already successful raised a couple of case was an excellent indicator because

They could not be too bad. There is a lot of investors, advisors. If, I mean, you don’t get money just like that. I mean, if it’s grants, it’s a different thing. You can do a good job. But in the end, if people, angel investors would start with their own money and give them the own money, it would also personally hurt them, right? When they, when they will fuck up. So choosing companies who did that before is easier. And then it really depends. The.

You have a lot of dependencies. Most of the problems, I mean, there are some statistics. Why do they fail and what happens, right? And the 42 % of the reasons why they do fail is they do not have a market need and they do not really fulfill the real problem. I came back to that. And then…

The other one is that the timing isn’t right for entering the market. And that’s the only one aspect you cannot really find out or validate. Then you have a lot of problems about the team, incorrect team, they lose the focus, disharmony, lack passion about the idea, business, but funding actually, it’s only 14 % that they would not.

Daniel Faloppa (30:22)
Yeah.

Peach Zwyssig (Axelra – Tech Venture Builder) (30:27)
get funding and all the rest would be okay. So it’s really finding the timing and there is, you just need to try it maybe several times. So resilience is a big topic here. And the other one is speed. And that’s also the reason why we pushed on that speed thing. You need to be able to prove and demonstrate traction and execute and get shit done really quickly. And also to pivot your idea to find out.

that you have the right problem solution, problem market fit that you can get started. And if not, then it’s not. And most of the people or teams are not focused or brave or consequent enough to then say, okay, let’s stop it. Also not investors. It’s a, it’s a unnice decision to take to say we stop. It does really feel like killing yourself. It’s, it’s, it’s not fun, right?

Daniel Faloppa (31:24)
killing your

baby. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, it’s not, yeah, it’s not fun. It’s not fun. But like, from your point of view and also from, I think, the founders point of view, that is still better than like surviving in zombie mode and like trying to raise like 20K every three months and being ramen profitable for like the next five years. And yeah.

Peach Zwyssig (Axelra – Tech Venture Builder) (31:25)
Yes.

Absolutely.

I mean, it depends on the level of desperation you have as a founder. If you found a problem that you want to dedicate your next 10 years to it, you anyway going to do it and you’re not stopping. And if not with that team, with some other team in an auto market, because you’re kind of obsessed with that mission you want to have. And that’s good. Maybe you will, you will be successful. That’s completely fine. And.

you need people with a killer instinct who really want to go for it. But on the other hand, if you tried it for so long and it doesn’t work, it might have a reason why it doesn’t. And it’s maybe not only the timing, maybe it’s just not a problem. And I found teams arguing and fighting about, the UX can be better and the branding is wrong and the pricing, no, no.

But in the end, what they tried to fix is they didn’t choose the right problem because you can have something with a super shitty app, it crashes, it doesn’t work, but if it really solves the problem, everybody on this platform is almost able to download and onboard himself on it. And of course, high fidelity onboarding process do help, but in addition to if you really found the problem to get solved.

Daniel Faloppa (33:13)
How do you discern between the two? How do you figure out it’s a problem not solving versus like a wrong, yeah, for example, brand fit. Like maybe you have a good brand but it’s completely unfit for your audience or something.

Peach Zwyssig (Axelra – Tech Venture Builder) (33:28)
Look, I… Yeah.

Absolutely. In the end, it’s normally as a human being, you go inside yourself and you ask yourself, would I like this or that’s, you can try to stop that, but you’re actually not able to stop it. But that’s, that, that’s you. That’s how you perceive things. And I also believe that’s good. If you take a look, ask your gut feeling, maybe not ask.

Ask your friends for real feedback because that would be too nice. But in the end, it’s going to the market, doing validations, ask people to pay for, ask random people, ask people who hate it, get really worst feedback you can get to digest it and take that all and see if you can pivot around. But pivoting actually should become the new normal. So it’s completely…

completely unrealistically to think that you can have an idea and then just go with it. And we do see three different kinds of pivot. One is product pivot. So that you say, OK, look, that’s something related to platform, to something else or technology, or you focus and you narrow down your product or you zoom it out. The second one is the business model pivot. So we do also see

A lot starting with B2C before they go to B2B, the value capture pivot or growth pivot or channel pivot, and then target market pivot, really seeing, okay, we need to change that. And you need to have a way where you can figure out in a very fast speed feedback loop, what really works and then change it. Because if you once have found it, people jump on it.

Daniel Faloppa (35:19)
Yeah.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, so is that, yeah, yeah, so is that like velocity, development velocity, change of solution velocity that you look into? Is there like some characteristics of the people that you see working at this, like let’s say pre -scale stage, right, that makes them more, more,

Peach Zwyssig (Axelra – Tech Venture Builder) (35:24)
It’s like fishing with the wrong bait.

Yes.

Yeah.

Daniel Faloppa (35:50)
adapt for this level of startup companies, this life.

Peach Zwyssig (Axelra – Tech Venture Builder) (35:53)
Yeah,

it’s in the formal company. I was eight years and helped to build from scratch the name for you and your customers. And I was a member of the star team there and we had a very simplified way of finding out who we need. So.

The company now has more than 200 people, around 50 or 20 branches to digital transformation for corporate stuff. And we had a cell structure. So people are put in small companies like cells. And whenever they reach the size of 25 people, we split the cell, like in the human body, right? And we were thinking because the growth comes from…

people who start and then they also want to build their own cell and then it evolves, you know, it’s like exponential things because then if you have 20 branches and everybody is just employing one person per quarter, you have 10 multiplied by four. So you grow with 40 people a year. It’s easier compared to having it at one situation. And we always said, look, we distinguish between pioneer, cowboy and farmer.

And to start a new entity, we always want to have a pioneer. That’s a personality who is not afraid of doing mistakes, probably only lives in future. Just these opportunities can go somewhere else, do friends with people, other would not become friends, but for them, everything is an opportunity. And they, they, they, they, everything that happens very badly. It’s just piece of learning and they move on. They move on.

But the problem of pioneers, you should not have too many of those. But they have this initial idea, the seed of something. They can also motivate people to join forces and get started with something. But they would need very quickly some cowboys. Cowboys who structure, who hunt the cow, see that there is some meat for somebody. They build kind of…

property lines and they say, this is our property, this is the other property, they shoot, they have prisons, they do stuff like that. So they can really execute and deliver. But also over time, the cowboy pioneer combination is not on the long run. So it’s not sustainable. So they need farmers. They need people who give stability, raise kids, do laws, perfectionize, do processes. And

It’s kind of a pyramid, right? So at the beginning, at least you would need somebody with a lot of, because everybody has pioneer farmers and cowboy elements in himself. I do have a test, which was developed by, by for you, the customers, which I always do when I meet new founders to find out what’s the ratio, how they see themselves, what’s the pioneer cowboy farmer approach and how do I see them? And then I look.

if that combination would work, because you always would need to have somebody covering the product area, somebody covering the management area, and somebody covering the sales, the rainmaker, right? Who can really ensure. And you need to have that combination at the beginning. And ideally, that’s what we were looking for. But I mean, this is in my wildest dream. OK, you have super engaged.

Daniel Faloppa (39:26)
Yeah.

Peach Zwyssig (Axelra – Tech Venture Builder) (39:40)
experienced serial founders who already bring a team and some funding and can complement with you to really ship it and have a lot of experience with it. But the actual situation is most of the people, they are not serial founders. So they do that. Now the ratio of serial founders increased. We are known now, the people are also coming to us, but you also need to get an expertise. But…

the more experienced people are, we become more selective in our criteria and they also become more selective and say, this is, I’m going to organize by myself. This is, I will need support on. This is how we do the handover. So they are more experienced than that. And that also helps on both sides.

Daniel Faloppa (40:27)
Yeah.

Yeah. Interesting. Yeah, because then like, yeah, most of the things that you follow are already, like, in a sense, started or like they are in that stage. Yeah. Yeah. So, okay. Very interesting. Very interesting. And then like, let’s close it up on this one. Where do you, when do you hand it over? Like, what happens at that point? Do you exit when they do a series A?

Do you wait until they get bigger? What’s your role there? How do you stop your role in a sense?

Peach Zwyssig (Axelra – Tech Venture Builder) (41:05)
Exactly.

So we, we, cultivize that handover process over time. So we also needed to learn that. And then we, we create the special deliverable for, for getting started in that process. I mean, we actually created a lot of, or put a lot of effort into deliverable flows. So what’s the most efficient way to come from A to B?

Daniel Faloppa (41:14)
Yeah.

Peach Zwyssig (Axelra – Tech Venture Builder) (41:34)
And what kind of things you need to be doing. And what we created was a venture building business plan master file, where we first estimate the whole effort across the whole team, what needs to be done. And then we kind of model the capacity, handover and recruiting of profiles, and then the business plan and then the funding approach. And those…

four things interlinked together, but we at the beginning already tried to plan a situation where we say, okay, now we are in the lead, we’re building, we’re shipping, but then we need to get the first people recruited to hand it over to plan that handover. And it has also to do with how much cash is available or that has been funded because of course you would be pretty much faster if your team has doubled the size.

But on the other hand, you’re also burning a lot. And then the point is also, let’s say, influenced by the runway you have. And sometimes it’s later, sometimes it’s earlier, but it’s important to talk about it. And normally, as soon as they have a stable team and the most important things done and the MVP is shipped and start to generate revenue,

we start to decrease. So we are not in the lead. We are kind of supporting and then we are decreasing, we’re decreasing. And after they have their own stable team and that’s the idea. So we want them to become self -sustainable. Our engagement becomes, let’s say more sprint driven. So they say, look, we are now doing this and that with the own team and that’s also fine. We also want to do other things.

And then they come with requests like, so, okay, we want to do three design sprints to push exactly that because we have an investor. Can we get this and that person? And then you just execute, but you’re not with a team of 10 people there. You support maybe with one or two people for a dedicated time, more work package related, where before you just need to do everything to ramp it up.

Daniel Faloppa (43:52)
Yeah. It sounds like you, you bring a lot of, professionalism in like a startup environment that a lot of the times is not so organized. Like I see the logic of that, right. But then I see like the startup situation, which is mostly like, Hey, is anybody free to remove the garbage? Because like we cannot enter the office anymore. Right. And, and,

I think

Peach Zwyssig (Axelra – Tech Venture Builder) (44:18)
Yeah.

Daniel Faloppa (44:20)
it’s very useful if you can bring that into start -up companies and have more systematic approach to these problems. I don’t know if it’s the Italian side.

Peach Zwyssig (Axelra – Tech Venture Builder) (44:31)
It’s still not a guarantee. I

mean, it’s not a guarantee proof that it works, but I also believe to have templates, to have experience, to have it done a couple of times helps a lot. And then what we also have are the boosters. So by doing now more than 40 of those ventures, we kind of have conceptually and also code -wise…

Daniel Faloppa (44:45)
Yeah.

Peach Zwyssig (Axelra – Tech Venture Builder) (45:00)
boosters like Lego bricks. And if you need to have a fully compliant onboarding with KYC and na na, you just take it from that thing because you already have it, right? And exactly. And we work now, we onboard more than half a million people to our digital product. So can’t be that wrong. Maybe you find something better, but to get started, take time, right? And…

Daniel Faloppa (45:12)
Yeah, somebody has done it before and yeah.

Peach Zwyssig (Axelra – Tech Venture Builder) (45:29)
That helps. That also brings a lot of speed. And you also see a lot of potential pitfalls that you can steer around and say, don’t take that route. Yeah, we tried that. No, no, no, it doesn’t work. So experience, yeah. Yeah.

Daniel Faloppa (45:42)
Yeah, I

think every developer knows that the second time you do a problem, it takes you like one -tenth of the time, right? And you do it twice as good because you know already all the problems. Maybe just one last question. I’m very curious about the launch of the company product, right? Do you stress a lot about it or you go like, no, this is just a beta version. Like we do a…

soft launch or like something quick and like we iterate from there. Like what’s your, what’s your approach on launches?

Peach Zwyssig (Axelra – Tech Venture Builder) (46:16)
We are launching every second day. So we need to come to the situation where we can launch iteratively in so many, many, many, many, many times. So it’s kind of continuous delivery. And that’s a big difference to, let’s say, for example, banks or telco companies. They have in the year for launch date.

And if you miss to submit everything a half year ago, you’re going to fuck it up. So maybe you end up with two and that’s a difference here. So when we try to set it up, we want to learn and be quickly. And at the beginning, we, especially apps you can, you can do with test flight, which is pretty easy, right? And then you, you would just go with, with,

testers that you increase. So first family and friends, then you have start to also work on the market side with community, with testers, you do validate with the people you did the validation before. You also send them that they send it to friends. You do, you, you need to start working also really with the people in the market, right at the beginning. So this is naturally growing and therefore you would not have the like the, okay, now it’s boom and everything was, there’s something new. So, so it’s.

you already working on the market side at the beginning, still for launching it, then on production in terms of different countries, we had products, we launched in 140 markets at the same time. You need to have a lot of jurisdiction stuff and check it. then you need to be more, conscious, but you try to, to test it before. And therefore the launching constantly.

and building the community and looping in with the community is a constant process.

Daniel Faloppa (48:11)
So it’s like you’re prioritizing information gathering rather than like sort of PR bang in a sense. Like you don’t wait a month to launch because you’re organizing all the PR and stuff. It’s rather like, let’s launch every couple of days and learn from that. Yeah. Yeah.

Peach Zwyssig (Axelra – Tech Venture Builder) (48:26)
Yes. So also for getting

funding to prove the traction and being able to say, look, we are working now since 50 days on it. We launched, we tested or validated a no code version of the app. It only has this use case, but we already deployed it to 20 customers. We received feedback and now we learned XYZ. Therefore,

We have the brilliant plan what to execute. We change technology, therefore. And we need the 350k to build and roll out the app. We already recruited at two events, 100 potential testers. Can I get the money for? It’s much more traction compared to, yeah, we have an idea and we’re preparing the launch and it’s going to be awesome. And the…

Daniel Faloppa (49:13)
Yeah, yeah. Or even we

launched it on Product Hunt and we have one day spike of like 200 users, but then nobody sticks with it and yeah.

Peach Zwyssig (Axelra – Tech Venture Builder) (49:20)
Exactly.

Exactly. So to launch that also MVP, we then say, okay, look, we have a POC and then we have a pre -MVP, an MVP, MVP alpha, beta, gamma, and so on and so forth. And then at one point there is a release 1 .0, which you also give a little PR activity, of course, but we want to have it kind of naturally growing.

on the parallel side with us is somehow possible. And therefore also the scope of an MVP never covers the scope of a release 1 .0. So it’s always the smallest, most important thing, but you should get validated to have the main feature or part of it at least deployed and getting experience. And then you can iterate around it, but then you already start to generate the revenue. Yeah. Exactly. Yeah.

Daniel Faloppa (50:12)
Yeah, yeah, or feedback and information at the very least. Yeah, nice,

nice. All right, so that’s super interesting. And I think a lot of founders experience all of this once, right? And you’ve experienced it like 43 times, and this is only with Accelera, right? So I think it’s super interesting to see what are the commonalities and stuff. OK, now moving on to the next topic, which is…

Peach Zwyssig (Axelra – Tech Venture Builder) (50:27)
Hahaha.

Mm -hmm.

Daniel Faloppa (50:41)
something that we have to get into is on the valuation side. So when does valuation come into play and what are your ideas on it?

Peach Zwyssig (Axelra – Tech Venture Builder) (50:45)
Yeah, sure.

Yeah, sure. So that’s also the reason why we got together a couple of years ago. There are different, let’s say, situations where valuation or in generally raising funds becomes interesting, but actually it’s always running for execution, people, sales, and also money that you need to raise. So…

Daniel Faloppa (50:59)
Yeah.

Peach Zwyssig (Axelra – Tech Venture Builder) (51:23)
valuation is really at the beginning already an important thing. When people come to us with a product problem, whatever idea they have, I always say, look, it has worth nothing. If you have a validated problem, then it becomes slowly interesting. But actually, as soon as a company has been incorporated, we are around.

the pre MVP MVP, we start to use equidom as one of the, one of the, let’s say, guiding, guiding anchor points to get started the discussion, because most of the time also the founders need to have experience on it and raising and valuation is a continuous process. So they need to become pros in that. And they also need to have an idea on how that really works. And.

When they start with raising, we do need to talk with them about what has the valuation worth. And in the end, it’s always, even if you… Now it’s always the case. So it’s always ask and demand. So it’s worth what gets paid. And we started to fix the valuation for when we start to enter with the…

the startup. So we made packages to accelerate them for a week. This is just a normal cash thingy, but then how can they launch, start an MVP in 50 days, 50 calendar days, or how can they launch the whole organization and launch and revenue generating MVP in 100 days? And therefore for the pre -MVP, we fixed the valuation and also made the package deal and said, look, it’s like a program.

They are coming. That’s what they pay. That’s the valuation. And because at the beginning, it’s not a lot of visible. So out of the hip, we say, look, if you have found a problem worth solving a target group, and then a validation for the customer that your problem saw, that your solution solves the problem, we can talk around valuations between 100K to 1 million, depending on the craziness of the idea.

We fix it then somewhere around 300K and just say, look, if we enter at the beginning when we didn’t even validate, we could get a package there. And then as MVP, when the MVP is built and generating revenue, you can talk about valuations four to six million. But then also on the other hand, you need to have revenue 100K plus. And before you can use some things like…

previous rounds and also valuation report from Equidom to say, look, this is the valuation that they would say, and then you also agree depending on the engagement model, how you go on. The more progressed you are, the more revenue numbers and figures and years you have and traction you can prove, the more accurate that data becomes. But at early stage, it’s really hard to get reliable data.

Daniel Faloppa (54:31)
Yeah.

Peach Zwyssig (Axelra – Tech Venture Builder) (54:48)
And it’s, it’s a lot of, it needs to be a fair offer. Everybody can agree to, and you can get started. And this is a little bit the way how we, how we try to do it.

Daniel Faloppa (55:00)
Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, and you see that also done by a lot of accelerators, right? That they just offer a standardized deal. They are almost filtering the companies also with that, right? Somebody that has like a much higher valuation, they’re not going to apply to a certain accelerator that gives them a very low valuation, but it simplifies the discussion for everybody.

Peach Zwyssig (Axelra – Tech Venture Builder) (55:22)
Absolutely. There is, we, as we are raising or support a lot in raising funds, we created an extensive funding map. It’s Accelerate .com slash funding map, where you will see by stage and accelerator incubator programs, VCs, angel investor clubs, when they would invest with what deal, how much equity they would take, what are the criteria’s on that.

Because you have many different options to raise liquidity for your startups, one of which is you give away shares, typical VC stuff, but you also can go for grants. You can also go for angel, there are loans, there are convertible loans, there are safe agreements, there are many, many things to consider. You can even go for a crowd invest story if you have something that our planet is really…

deserves and get a lot of attention. Maybe you have also some contacts to the news that helps you to pump your valuation, but there are many ways and it’s a complicated topic and the valuation itself is as important to know and being able to talk about and also know what has influence on it. But also on the long run, closing really the rounds, know how you do that, get the liquidity, not getting

two shitty contracts from VC blocking you for the next step so there is a lot of experience also to be explored there.

Daniel Faloppa (56:55)
Yeah, yeah, for sure. Especially like I think, like founders come from their own domain, right? Which is like almost never finance unless it’s a fintech. But and like, yeah, this part is really lacking. And like you think about the current round, but then if you go even beyond and think like, okay, this is a capital intensive startup, I need to…

to really figure out, okay, what’s going to be my path for fundraising for the next three to five years to give the company the best odds. It’s not as important, I don’t think, as figuring out everything else that we were talking about, because when that stuff is figured out, then you can find people that help you on the finance side. It’s more commodity in a sense. But yeah, the first time it’s a lot of information to take in and a lot of…

founders that are just completely alienated from this world because of previous upbringing. And it’s getting better. I think it’s getting more standardized, but in Europe it’s still a very open… Also, we talk a lot about safes and those type of contracts, but they’re not really standardized in most of Europe. So I always tell everybody, you need to read the fine print of everything when… Yeah.

Peach Zwyssig (Axelra – Tech Venture Builder) (58:15)
You need, you need and it’s also

it’s, it’s the typically the having somebody experience on the board, especially with that experience can be, can be really, really a gold knuckle for you. But also covering all the aspects, as you just mentioned is super, super difficult. You have on every possible level, you’re kind of working with.

with over promising delivering sleepless nights. It’s a hard life. It’s a hard life if you want to do that. And we tend to do a little bit more. In Switzerland, we have a name for that. Bünsli. You know, it’s everything super. Yeah, it’s more so the traditional way and not really being super sophisticated. So we want to have.

Companies build companies, they don’t need to explode in growth, but it’s okay if they just really quickly start to earn more money that they spend. So it’s easy and they should reach that point pretty fast. And it’s not the business model of those companies is fundraising. They should find something where they really generate an additional value that also gets substantially converted in cash.

So it need to, and just being an entrepreneur in the end, I mean, you just need to ensure everybody enjoys the process. And in the end of the month, you have a positive figure. And sometimes I feel a little bit that people are amazed by all that cool stuff that everybody is self promoting how cool he is and nah, but the normal pure hustler who just does his thing and maybe not does the…

100 million unicorn they are underestimated. I really love people who do their job and have an idea and just do it and not are kind of busy with making noise around what they’re doing. They should do it and 20 % is noise not the other way around.

Daniel Faloppa (1:00:31)
Yeah.

Yeah, yeah, fair enough. Yeah, there are there are these very two, two schools of thought, right? Like you can really see the difference in people that that that belong to one or belong to the other. Like the fake it until you make it. We’re going to do everything, be everything for everybody. And on the other hand, like the almost understated founders and interesting. Yeah, I think the jury is still out on which is the best method. But but yeah.

It’s definitely, I think it’s also a bit more of a European thing, right? To appreciate this type of more like silent talent, let’s say, that really does the hard work.

Peach Zwyssig (Axelra – Tech Venture Builder) (1:01:17)
I, I’m, I, yes, Europe has a different approach, for example, compared to, to, to the States. Also when it’s about dealing with failure and stuff, stuff like that. I also, I mean, fake it until you make it is also important also for the silent house. They also should learn about talking, but not only, but in the end also the VCs in the last year changed.

what they are looking for. So the focus came away to us, fast grow, blah, blah to, is that really sustainable? Do they have traction? Can they prove it? So they also become a little bit less, illusionary with what they want. Okay. It’s super growth case. They also want to have stable cases because, and I do like it because we always made it at the beginning, that way. Yeah.

Daniel Faloppa (1:02:15)
Yeah, I mean, I like it too. I think there are extremely hard problems to solve and like a lot of founders that don’t know how to solve problems just pick up The Economist, right? Pick up The Economist and it talks about the problems of every country in the world pretty much. I don’t know why journalism is only about problems, but you can find like a hundred problems in one of those magazines. But the…

Peach Zwyssig (Axelra – Tech Venture Builder) (1:02:36)
you

Daniel Faloppa (1:02:45)
I mean, that’s also like on our side of Equidem side, like this hype that there was during COVID, this amount of money going after anything just because it was showing some potential of growth is not beneficial to the industry. What happens is then you have a slump afterwards. What’s happening now, people get discouraged. They get out of startups. They become extremely risk averse because they’ve been burned.

where all of this could have been avoided. Of course, it’s easy in hindsight, right? It’s very easy in hindsight to say it could have been avoided. But like, we need to think critically about, okay, this is a business, it’s not a fairy tale. And like, we are financing cash flow, we’re financing, or at least cash flow potential on hopefully hard problems that help humanity forward or the planet or pick whatever, right? But…

Peach Zwyssig (Axelra – Tech Venture Builder) (1:03:36)
Yes.

Daniel Faloppa (1:03:46)
Hopefully, that’s a message that we are spreading out there a bit.

Peach Zwyssig (Axelra – Tech Venture Builder) (1:03:49)
That’s a

really good thing to circle back to the close to circle at the beginning. There are a lot of problems. Yes, not many of them you can commercialize and it’s really hard to solve those problems, but we are living in a world that the real problem to really get solved are really hard to crack. So it’s not like a hundred years ago where you just say, like on a…

create the bottle, that’s now the thing. I mean, we do already have so many things everywhere and it’s hard to find the real problem and then generate a demand, especially in small markets, right? And you must be really obsessed by something because it’s a lot of fun for you that you’re going to take that journey for you as an entrepreneur to build it. It can be really cool, but it’s also…

many people over -idealize it a little bit and coming from a corporate world, they are kind of stuck there and they want to become a cool entrepreneur and then they discover, wow, that’s a completely different thing, right?

Daniel Faloppa (1:05:03)
I

need to do all the jobs that I hated doing in the corporate, but now I have to do them just to survive. Yeah. No, that’s true. That’s true. But I think like, you know, the… Well, I mean, otherwise I would do something else, right? But the freedom, the possibility of making your own rules, right? Like…

Peach Zwyssig (Axelra – Tech Venture Builder) (1:05:08)
Yeah. Where is my team? Where is my team? Yeah.

Daniel Faloppa (1:05:30)
goes a long way into compensating for that. But yeah, indeed, a lot of people idealize it. And in a sense, the neighbor’s grass is always greener, right? So when you’ve done corporate for 10 years, you’re going to really idealize this. And then you see it a lot with developers doing five years working for a company and then doing five years of freelancing because that’s better. But then after five years of freelancing, they’re like, I want something stable. And they go back to. So there is a bit of that.

Peach Zwyssig (Axelra – Tech Venture Builder) (1:05:55)
Yeah, I think it’s a

good development also for people who want to try it. I mean, we do work a lot with corporates and they have brilliant people and also some of them who are extremely successful also because they think and act very entrepreneurial, but then it’s culture -wise also something different. So you cannot compare one company to the other because it’s completely different approach how they do things.

But I believe that what you just mentioned, being your own boss, not being, I mean, you’re always depending, depending from funding, from market, from customers, then the customer is your boss in the end. So it’s also up, but, but having, having, chosen a framework for you or a situation or a context that really makes sense to you, that you feel growing and contributing to something that’s more important than just becoming rich.

I believe that’s the way to go where people say, look, this is really what I love to do. This is really where I good up. So finding your ICO guy a little bit, right? That has an impact. I have a talent I can use and it’s also, I like getting up in the morning how to do it. And I mean, there is this saying, so it’s not the Monday that sucks, it’s your job. And it’s…

Daniel Faloppa (1:07:17)
Yeah.

Peach Zwyssig (Axelra – Tech Venture Builder) (1:07:19)
It’s being brave and trying out if entrepreneurship could be good for you is absolutely a great experience.

Daniel Faloppa (1:07:26)
Yeah.

Yeah. But I do think like what you said, like detaching from the money goal is essential. Otherwise, I think you’re going to go nuts. There is no way to improve your revenue by thinking, I want to improve my revenue. Like you need to think, okay, I want to improve my service to my customers. I want to change like type of customer. I want to offer a different thing. But like if you just obsess over the money as its own goal,

It doesn’t go anywhere and it drives you nuts, I think.

Peach Zwyssig (Axelra – Tech Venture Builder) (1:08:00)
There is a saying that if you followed your purpose path, money will follow you and it’s not working the other way around, right? So if you’re trying just to follow the money, you’re not going to find your purpose. But the money way will always follow you and you need to spend a little bit of time to discover that and also be brave to go to that unknown spot inside yourself to conquer.

And find out, Hey, there is something it might take time, but you should always try to enjoy that process. If it’s just driven by fear and, and, you kind of, feel like you need to demonstrate it for somebody else. No, don’t do it. Just do it because you think it makes sense to you. It’s also something that really works fine at investors. If they see that you have a personal.

Daniel Faloppa (1:08:51)
Yeah, yeah. And.

Peach Zwyssig (Axelra – Tech Venture Builder) (1:08:58)
relationship to that problem and that you’re really on a mission because you want to do it, it gives a lot of confidence that you’re not going to stop. That’s cool. I’m impressed by something like that.

Daniel Faloppa (1:09:11)
Speaking of that, what’s giving you energy these days? Where do you see opportunities in, let’s say, entrepreneurial environment right now?

Peach Zwyssig (Axelra – Tech Venture Builder) (1:09:21)
Hey, currently it’s a really difficult, difficult time. And for me, the one point is absolutely so, can you grow and do you enjoy most of the time of that? But to boil it down in the end, there is this comic, I like that, where the little dragon is sitting on the panda. And then the panda is asking of the dragon, I don’t know.

What’s more important, the destiny or the journey? And then the other responded, it’s the company. So the people you’re surrounded with.

Daniel Faloppa (1:10:02)
Fair, fair enough.

Peach Zwyssig (Axelra – Tech Venture Builder) (1:10:03)
Having said that,

I guess it’s about, I mean, money will go away some when you cannot take it to the next life whenever it exists. But the people around that you have, that you work with, that you have impact on, also maybe not in that company, maybe over your life, I guess that’s the thing. So develop yourself and the people around you.

That’s cool. If we can also build that and put it into cool startup, generating a lot of money. I love that. Of course, but it’s around the relationships and people you have.

Daniel Faloppa (1:10:40)
Nice, nice. I think we should leave it on that positive note. We haven’t gotten to talk about so many other things, but maybe we’ll talk in the future about those. Thank you very much, Peach, for participating today. And yeah, good luck with everything you’re doing.

Peach Zwyssig (Axelra – Tech Venture Builder) (1:10:45)
You

Thanks for having me.

Same, same, same, same. Thanks a lot. Bye bye.

Daniel Faloppa (1:10:59)
All right.